Nerd Shopping......

[Pikan]

Ok I need some....well advise isnt the word.......I was hopping for some constructive discussion regarding the merits and stuff of what to buy...

My PC seems to be on the way to PC heaven......sooo I am looking at buying/building a new system.....

My question or rather what I want to know of peoples experince with is this.....

p4 or AMD.....?

Is getting a 64 bit chip worth the effort?

Is a dual core chip going to be worth the effort and cost......

Basically I am thinking of getting an AMD 64 X2 (dual core 64 bit chip) and running dualboot vista/xp 64

Man I hate buying PC's / PC parts.... tooo much choice.....and it all sounds soooo good - but when you actually get it all home and see it running you can never really tell the difference between what you bought and what you almost bought........


The AMD 64 X2 chip looks great. All the benchmarks look good and it beats the intel chip on most tests.....HOWEVER....

Last 3 PC's I have bought this was the case.....each time I have looked into it the AMD chip has won on 90% of tests........so I buy one and its not as good as its intel competition.

The last PC I bought was an AMD 2000+ - it was OK, however it wasnt as stable as the intel system I bought to replace it and it wasnt as fast for most stuff either.

Basically I like the idea of a 64bit OS.....(its about time the moved on from 32bit if you ask me) and AMD seems to be ahead of intel in this area.....but again and again I come back to the fact that this is how its been every other time and I have gone with the AMD chip and been very very disappointed and then end up swapping for an intel (which invariably costs me more cash) and a feeling I should have just stuck with intel in the first place


Please leave your thoughts as I would like to know what others "who use their PCs for similar stuff to me" think about this....

[Phystik]

I'm using an AMD 64bit 3200+ and it runs fantastic (with gig of ram, 256mb 6800 ultra)

If you want to though, as there isn't a whole heap of app's/games making the most of 64bit technology, save some on the motherboard/processor and get a good video card.

[Ewann]

umm either vanilla A64 or a X2.  atm X2 isn't really useful as not a lot will really make use of it.  They're fast though.

I voted for a vanilla A64.  I recently got a 3400+, 7800GTX with new MB and a gig of ram.

[Pikan]

Now thats a whole nother kettle of fish, Phystik (or should I say whole nother kettle of Phish...? hehheheh)

I *think* I am going to go the AMD 64 X2......now if possible I would like to keep my current graphics card for while longer as I only bought it a couple of weeks ago.....but...(this was going to be my next question after I decided what processor to buy)......

Will AGP cards be made for the forseable furture.....(ie will they still be making new AGP cards in approx 3 years time)

Should I buy a PCI-express card? - I could possibly justify selling my current card and buying an equivilent card in Xpress format.....

Bah - this needs a poll on its own, cause should I buy a system that can use my current card in the hopes I will be able to upgrade it later to something more powerfull or dump the current card and go for another one and if so what card ATI or Nvidia......


So lets just ignore the whole graphics card issue for now I think.......

[Ewann]

If you get a X2, you'll be on PCI-Express anyways.  There are apparently boards that come with both (PCI-E and AGP) though.

I haven't seen a new top-end AGP board released for a while now, they're all PCI-E.  Also, go PCI-E for a little future-proofing.

[peer]

Funny you should choose today to post this, I just spent a fair bit of time looking into this with my current system, as of yet haven't reached a decision, but here's some random tips relevant to what you mentioned in your OP...

- Avoid dual core (expensive) CPUs if you're looking for gaming performance, go for higher-speed single core instead, the majority of games see little or no difference with CPUs that can multitask

- If you're buying all new cpu, motherboard and video card now, go for PCI-E and consider getting a vid card and motherboard that is SLI compatible incase you want to double up later... I think that pretty much limits you to AMD though (eg. nForce4 SLI based motherboard, nVidia 6600/6800/7800 GT series)

- Take note of your current system and see if getting only a video card upgrade will suffice (like an AGP 6600GT for example), many games will max out your vid card before your cpu


I'm considering buying a whole new system but only when Windows Vista and DirectX 10 is released, but that is literally 12 months or more away yet (Nov/Dec 2006). Instead I'm considering getting either a 6600GT, a 6800GT or an X850XT to replace my 9800XT.

HTH

[Pikan]

Funny you should choose today to post this, I just spent a fair bit of time looking into this with my current system, as of yet haven't reached a decision, but here's some random tips relevant to what you mentioned in your OP...

- Avoid dual core (expensive) CPUs if you're looking for gaming performance, go for higher-speed single core instead, the majority of games see little or no difference with CPUs that can multitask

This is what I thought, however I have not looked into price at all yet - if its less then $100 between the 2 chips then I will go for the better one.

- If you're buying all new cpu, motherboard and video card now, go for PCI-E and consider getting a vid card and motherboard that is SLI compatible incase you want to double up later... I think that pretty much limits you to AMD though (eg. nForce4 SLI based motherboard, nVidia 6600/6800/7800 GT series)

This is sadly this is what I suspected will happen, I was trying to save myself a few hundred by keeping my current card for a while as its brand new but I dont think I will be able to do it.

- Take note of your current system and see if getting only a video card upgrade will suffice (like an AGP 6600GT for example), many games will max out your vid card before your cpu

Sadly the only reason for the upgrade is that my current system has developed some really irritation faults over the last few weeks. The system is fairly new however its over its 12 month warranty (and since my work gave me the PC and I no longer work there I think its best not to remind them I still have it by making a service call on it) - Basically I think either my ram or my motherboard is a bit flakey - hard to tell, although it doesnt seem to like ANY sticks of ram so most likely MBD.

I'm considering buying a whole new system but only when Windows Vista and DirectX 10 is released, but that is literally 12 months or more away yet (Nov/Dec 2006). Instead I'm considering getting either a 6600GT, a 6800GT or an X850XT to replace my 9800XT.

This was my original plan......my current system is a p4 2.4Ghz....so I was going to try and stick with it untill vista had been released however the PC had other ideas. I still have not decided if I will buy a laptop with a halfway decent graphics card in it (I have seen one with an AMD 64 chip in it PLUS a 128MB ATI card - nice sexy looking laptop) or if I will buy a barebones system and then slowly upgrade it to something decent.....

its all to confusing - too many choices

[Mort]

Working out a new system for Smuts atm to suit his 106cm LCD telly

Intel P4-660-3.6 CPU: LGA775 EM64T 2MB CACHE Retail w/fan  
Asus P5ND2-SLI-DELUXE nVIDIA nFORCE4 SLI LAG775 2xPCI-E 16x 2xGiga-LAN RAID DDR2  
Silverstone Lascala LC03S Deskstop Case: Silver no PSU  
Corsair TWIN2X1024-5400C4 1GB (2X512M) 240-pin DDRII XMS2-5400  
Thermaltake W0043 Power Supply: 480W ATX Silent w Control panel  
Leadtek PX6600GT TDH-128 Extreme Version SLIPremium GF 6600GT 128M DVI-I PCI-E (2 SLI card pack)  
Pioneer DVR-110DSV DVD-RW :16XDVD+R/-R Silver OEM - NO SOFTWARE  
2x Western Digital WD2500KS 250GB, 7200 RPM, 16MB Cache, SATA II  

Should come in around 2-2.5K

[Macky]

Bring on the Saudi Oil money??
ehehe

[Buddarh]

Talking prices.. where do u get ur hardware from? These are the 3 that I look at in Sydney. There is always Sunday computer market at North Rocks, and the computerfair group that come around once a month. I'm always looking for cheaper.

http://www.msy.com.au/ the best prices i can find at the moment. But the queue at the shop can be a real pain. (the queue on Sats are about the same as Proudmoore at identical times)

http://www.fluidtek.com.au/ Excellent for their daily specials.. not too crash hot on their normal items

http://www.computertarget.com.au/ use to be the best.. just thought id give them a mension.

[Mort]

www.umart.net

Been using these guys for a few years now or I go to the pc markets when there on up here in newy

[Pikan]

I am a registered computer reseller so I have a few contacts around sydney where I can buy stuff wholesale....

Cant get everything wholesale but most stuff - enough so that I can build 90% of a system for cheap.........


I recon I can put a halfway decent system together for around 600 bucks.....

And of course sometimes Dell has a special too good to pass up (the other day they were selling basic desktop system for $600 with a free upgrade to a 19" LCD.......since the LCD is worth $350 odd - thats basically a system for $250.....Admittedly this isnt a good enough system to run my games on but if you just lurk on their site you can get something pretty damn good pretty cheap.

But most likely I will buy the stuff wholesale and put it together myself.

Wholesale price for say a 4 port ADSL 2/+2 modem and router is about $50...
nVidia FX 6600GT, PCI-Express, 128bit DDR, w/HDTV Out, DVI - 128 MB - is $192

nVidia FX 6600, PCI-Express, 128bit DDR, w/HDTV OUT, DVI -256MB - is $134

Not sure what the difference (besides ram size) is but both look to be ok cards

NFORCE4 SLI/S939/FSB2000MT/s/Dual Ch. DDR400/SATA/RAID/Giga LAN/2PCIExp16(SLI)/4DDR/8ch Sound

seems to be an ok MBD and its only $153...


And thats without shopping around at all.

I am sure I have mentioned to the people from RoG that it might be worth a call if your in the market for PC parts as I can get em pretty cheap usually.

AMD Athlon64 3500+, 2.2GHz, Dual Channel 128bit 512K Cache, 939 pin (Box) - $313

Let me know if they are substantially cheaper at the markets, but since its the same distance for me to drive if the price is about the same I will go to the wholesaler as warranty claims are easier...

I have alot of research to do before I actually buy anything so I probably wont get to buy it untill after xmas....

I *think* I want

SLI MBD (so I can get 2 vid cards eventually)
AMD 64 chip (not sure of vanilla or X2)
1 stick 1GB ram (so I can add more later when I get more cash)
256MB vid card
2x 120 GB SATA HDD's (if mbd does raid then striped disk is the way to go)
DVD rom (already have a DVD-RW+ and - dual layer - just want a rom so I can copy disc to disc)
Case + PS

$313 - chip
$153 - MBD
$134 - vid card
$160 - HDD's (I seem to remember 120GB drives are around $80 each)
$30 - DVD rom (max)
Plus cost of a case and PS

Comes to $790 plus the case....DOH - forgot to add ram....

Oh well - all up it comes in at less than 1k

Add $459 for a 19" widescreen LCD - so $1500 and I will have a pretty sweet system.

[peer]

- Avoid dual core (expensive) CPUs if you're looking for gaming performance, go for higher-speed single core instead, the majority of games see little or no difference with CPUs that can multitask

This is what I thought, however I have not looked into price at all yet - if its less then $100 between the 2 chips then I will go for the better one.

Current games simply don't get anything out of a dual-core setup so if you're going game performance, just get a single core CPU that runs at a higher clock speed. Know your reasons for getting an X2 if you decide on it.

Example

A64 X2 4400+ Toledo S939 = roughly $520 <- 2.2 GHz
A64 3500+ Venice S939 = roughly $320 <- 2.2 GHz
A64 3800+ Venice S939 = roughly $450 <- 2.4 GHz

The Venice 3800+ will run games (and all other single-threaded apps) faster than the X2 4400+ -- IF the game doesn't bottleneck at your video card first. Money saved that you can spend on a better vid card instead.

[Pikan]

A64 X2 4400+ Toledo S939 = roughly $520 <- 2.2 GHz
A64 3500+ Venice S939 = roughly $320 <- 2.2 GHz
A64 3800+ Venice S939 = roughly $450 <- 2.4 GHz

if these are the prices I would go for the A64 3500+ Venice S939 = roughly $320 <- 2.2 GHz

I know the apps arent written to take advantage of the dual core, the only reason I would go for a dual core is if I could get one at a similar price.....Same with the 64 bit part - there isnt much written to take advantage of the 64bit CPU - but there is *some* stuff and windows will take advantage of it (windows will also take advantage of the dual core - XP pro is happy to use 2 CPU's.)

for example...if you cut out that 3500+ chip and I had to choose between the other 2 I would choose the dual core for no other reason than its less than $100 difference and there is the whole nerd factor to go with it.....

but if its a question of $200 difference I would rather save my cash and go for more ram or a better vid card...

The thing with the vid card option is that I can upgrade that at a later date without blowing too much dough - the CPU is a case of once I buy it I aint going to buy another one.

[peer]

I'm really considering getting an AGP 6800GT to stick in my current setup to replace my 9800XT. Any chance of a price check through your wholesale goodness?

They seem to be floating around the $500 - 600 mark for brands I'd consider. Albatron is OK bang for buck, I think.

[Pikan]

I'm really considering getting an AGP 6800GT to stick in my current setup to replace my 9800XT. Any chance of a price check through your wholesale goodness?

They seem to be floating around the $500 - 600 mark for brands I'd consider. Albatron is OK bang for buck, I think.

Not sure on brands myself but........

XpertVision GF 6800GT 256MB 256bit DDR3
AGP 8X Interface
I/O connections include: DVI
TV Out
HDTV; 350MHz Core Graphics Clock speed
400MHz RAMDAC
supports Direct X9.1 and OpenGL 1.5; NVIDIA technologies include: CineFX
UltraShadow
Intellisample
nView
Digital Vibrance

$422.30 (I beleive its an ex-demo card - but it comes with a 2 year warranty so should be good)

[Ashby]

Mort, (apologies Pik for the de-rail) FYI I have to say that I'm sorely disappointed with my 6600GT. I'm just not getting the FPS that I expected (P4 3.2, 2 Gig RAM). If you and Smuts are going to spend the big bucks I'd definitely look at something higher up the food chain.


Fleet

[Ewann]

I think I'd just go a 6800Ultra instead of SLI 6600GT.

[Pikan]

Mort, (apologies Pik for the de-rail) FYI I have to say that I'm sorely disappointed with my 6600GT. I'm just not getting the FPS that I expected (P4 3.2, 2 Gig RAM). If you and Smuts are going to spend the big bucks I'd definitely look at something higher up the food chain.


Fleet

No de-rail - this is exactally the sort of info I am trying to get folks to discuss....

Last 3 vid cards I bought were nVidia - I wasn't very happy with any of them (compared to what I paid for them)

Last time I bought a card I decided there was no way I was going to buy an nVidia card......so I bought an ATI

I got approximately 1 week of use of it (so in real terms about an hour and a half actual play time) before the rest of my system decided to pack it in, and since then I havent been able to run any 3D games for more than 15 minutes or so before it all dies horribly (thus my reason for research into the next PC)

However - when it was working it was sweet. fast, smooth - I was impressed.

Once I have milked this thread for all the info on processors and MBD's I can get, I'm gunna start another about vid cards.....

ALL YOU BRAIN BELONG TO US~!~!~!~!~!

[Mort]

KK will look into it a bit more , i'll talk him into spending a extra $150 for the 7800GT instaed.

[Pikan]

Drooool.....($1509)


ELSA ATI FIRE GL V7100
256MB 256-bit GDDR3 SDRAM
PCI-Express
DVI-I/D-Sub
Core clock: 500MHz
Memory clock: 1000MHz
supports DirectX 9.0
OpenGL API
2D hardware features include: MPEG-2
All-format DTV/HDTV decoding
3D hardware features include: SMARTSHADER
SMOOTHVISION
VIDEOSHADER and Hyper Z
HDTV and DVD playback
Supports Windows XP/2000
Package contents include: instruction manual
drivers and software
2 x DVI-I to D-Sub adapter.

This one not bad either....

XpertVision GF 7800GTX 256MB 256bit DDR3
PCI-Express X16 interface
Dual DVI
VIVO
TV-Out interfaces
430MHz Core Clock
1200MHz Memory Clock
Memory bandwidth: 38.4
400MHz RAMDACs
10.32 billion pixels/sec fill rate
860 million vertices/sec
Next-generation superscalar GPU architecture
supports Direct X9.0 Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0; NVIDIA technologies include: SLI Ready
CineFX 4.0
Intellisample 4.0
PureVideo
ForceWare
nView.

$761.47

[peer]

Dude, I like the price of that XpertVision one Pikan. Is there a time / stock limit to that?

Edit: I mean the AGP 6800 GT

From what I can tell, XpertVision are cheaper than most because they simply re-badge reference boards, slap on an adequate heatsink & fan and provide a very sparse software package. Which is great for people that know what they're doing

[peer]

Jebus...

ELSA AGP GF 6800GT 256MB 2DVI TV $425

[Ewann]

Yep, 7800GTX's are teh shiznitz.  Get one of them.  I got an ASL one, stock standard reference board with stock cooler.  They actually run a lot cooler than the 6800's.  My old 6800GT was very nice but also very hot.  I ended up putting a new cooler on it.  Haven't had a need to with the 7800GTX so far.

If you're looking for a slightly cheaper option, a 6800GT is still very nice.

[Pikan]

Jebus...

ELSA AGP GF 6800GT 256MB 2DVI TV $425

Not a bad site that one....got some good  cheap stuff.

As to your other question I beleive that one was a demo model so I would say there is only one.

Personally I would just go the one from macrotech....reasonable price and stuff...

Been a while since I went shopping for graphics cards (last one I bought just down the road because I was in a hurry) so I cant remember who has the cheap ones.....(well the mid range cheap ones - can get bottom of range really cheap)

nVidia 7800GTX, PCI-Express, 256bit DDR, w/HDTV OUT, DVI -256MB - this one is $698 - shame you dont have a PCI-x slot.